In this interview, we will discuss:
How to articulate your value to a referral source, especially in a service industry
How financial advisors can get more referrals from attorneys and vice versa
What type of attorneys will refer back
How to prospect and network in a virtual world
Listen to the full interview here!
Read the full transcript here!
Amy Parvaneh:
Hi everyone. It's Amy Parvaneh from Select Advisors Institute. In this interview, I'm going to be speaking with my friend Eido Walny of the Walny Legal Group. Eido is an estate planning attorney, and he has extensive experience discussing how financial advisors can get more referrals from estate planning attorneys, the mindset of the attorneys that do make referrals, how attorneys and financial advisors can better collaborate to grow each other's businesses and how to move the ball forward after that initial first meeting with a center of influence so you could get more introductions and referrals. We're also going to be speaking about how to best market yourself and your practice in a digital world, as well as many, many other things. So with that, let's get started meeting Eido Walny from the Walny Legal Group.
Eido Walny:
My name is Eido Walny. I am the founder and managing partner of Walny Legal Group. We're a boutique estate planning firm based out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but serving a national and even international clientele. Our clients range from normal everyday people all the way up through celebrities, high net worth individuals, athletes, doctors, dentists, and multi-generational wealthy. So a very wide and diverse spectrum of estate planning clients.
Amy Parvaneh:
Is estate planning something for the high net worth only?
That actually at least to my first question, Eido, which is, is estate planning something for the high net worth only? Or is it not, and at what point does someone need an estate planning attorney?
Eido Walny:
That's a great question because I think it's a regular misconception that estate planning is just for a certain kind of person, either elderly people or just for married people, or just for people with kids, or just for people with a lot of money, and nothing could be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that once you turn 18, you're an adult and there are certain estate planning documents that are going to be critical to you, regardless of any other demographics that you may fit into other than your age. The age of 18 is what touches this off. Now at age 18, regardless of your net worth or any other demographics, you're not probably going to need a whole lot, maybe powers of attorney and HIPAA authorizations, things that if you were to become disabled or incapacitated your affairs would continue to go on.
Eido Walny:
A lot of people think that even though their parents continue be their hotel, their restaurant, their laundry mat, their bank, all of these various services that parents can just step in, because once you turn 18, your parents are still your parents, but in the eyes of the law, you're an adult at that point. And so there are certain documents that you're going to need. And as people mature in life, there are other things that they may need, a will, a trust, some tax planning. So not everybody is going to need the same estate plan. And every plan is contoured to the needs of an individual. But planning is not only for wealthy people, not only for white or black or Asian people, it really serves every demographic at every stage of your life once you become an adult,
Amy Parvaneh:
How do estate planning attorneys typically get their client base?
That's really great to know. Because you're completely right, there is a misconception about who needs an estate planning attorney. So Eido, how do estate planning attorneys typically get their client base? Let's assume they don't have a wide network and it's not word of mouth. What are some ways that they are marketing themselves to get the word out?
Eido Walny:
I think the law is a business like every other business, and lawyers are not immune to the marketing rules of business, just like every other industry. So of course, our clients are our customers, so for us here, word of mouth and networks and connections are the best route for our clients to find us. But we do other marketing, whether online marketing, or speaking, and writing, all the various things that people would do to market themselves if they were selling widgets, we do, except instead of selling a product, we're selling our time and our knowledge base.
Amy Parvaneh:
What are some best practices from financial advisors working and collaborating with estate planning attorneys?
That's great. And I know one of the ways you guys get your clients as well, or introductions, is through financial advisors. So talk to me about that, about the relationship you guys have with financial advisors and some best practices you've seen in collaboration with financial advisors.
Eido Walny:
Yeah. I think the most important question, a word in the question you just asked is collaborate. We have the perspective that a client is best served when they have a full financial team, which includes not only the estate planning attorney, but a banker, a financial advisor and accountants and insurance agents, all the various people who serve part of their financial services team. Really, no one of those people can do their job optimally without the help of the others. I can't do an estate plan in a vacuum because I need to know some other things that are going on and more likely than not the client isn't going to have the breadth of knowledge, even about their own financial situation that I'm going to need.
Eido Walny:
So having some contact or connection with some of these other members and preferably all of these other members of the financial services team is critically important. And of course, once you develop those relationships, that tends to lead to additional work down the road, as you develop a closer connections with various members of the financial services team for the next client and the next client and the next client.
Amy Parvaneh:
Do most of your clients already have a financial advisor, or do you find yourself being asked hey, I need a financial advisor.
Eido Walny:
More often than not we are getting referrals from financial advisors. And the reason for that is on that financial services team, again, the estate planner, the banker, the accountant, the financial advisor, and the insurance agent, of those five team members, the person that they're most likely to be in contact with at a deep level the most frequently is the financial advisor, because people are simply programmed to think that wealth is created by that financial advisor. And they tend to just be in better communication with that person. As a result, that individual is usually in the best seat to make referrals outward. So when they're doing a quarterly or semi-annual review with the client, they're going to ask, do you have your taxes filed? Did you get that insurance we talked about? Did you get your estate plan in place? The estate plan generally, with some exceptions, is something that gets done once and then updated every five years or so.
Eido Walny:
And so we're just not going to have the volume of touches with the client that the financial advisor is going to have. And so that person is really the quarterback of the financial services team and able to help direct a lot of the work. Now that's not to say that occasionally clients don't come in from another referral, whether it's the accountants or the insurance agents or whatever. And in those cases, if there's no financial advisor, then we're in a position to make a referral. But I would say easily four times out of five, if not more, the referral into us from a financial service professional is coming from the financial advisor.
Amy Parvaneh:
Should financial advisors build relationships with estate planning attorneys?
So would you say that if an advisor, if a financial advisor is looking for ways of marketing themselves, maybe it's not as fruitful to be trying to build relationships with estate planning attorneys, because usually the estate planning attorney doesn't have referrals to send back.
Eido Walny:
So while we don't necessarily have the volume of referrals to send back, what I would say is this, for one thing, I have the mentality that you should never keep score because we're all playing different games. For a financial advisor, when they have a client, that client is evergreen to them. So whether they're making fee-based services or they're getting commissions for the work that they do, or making money off of various trades or whatever, that client is going to continue to generate revenue for them. And so for the estate planning attorney, we generally have one kick at making fees. We do the plan, we get paid, and then our job is done. So for a lot of financial advisors, if they're looking for a one-to-one relationship, which is usually the easiest way to keep score, that's not a fair way to look at it, because one referral from an estate planning attorney is probably worth more revenue to the financial advisor than 20 referrals from the financial advisor to the estate planning attorney.
Eido Walny:
And so you have to look at it that way. I would say the other way that we tend to add value to the existing clients of the financial advisor is by solidifying that relationship because of course, financial advisors are always worried about clients going somewhere else, and so we can help solidify the relationship. We may also be able to open up avenues where certain products may not be appropriate in some cases, but maybe in others when an estate plan is put in place. That's certainly true for insurance professionals, for example. So the easiest example is this. With a life insurance agent, the client knows that the life insurance agent makes money by selling life insurance. And so they're always going to discount the advice that's being given to them because they know that the agent's sole source of revenue is selling insurance.
Eido Walny:
Well, I think insurance is great, and I think there are a lot of different ways to use and leverage life insurance. And since I don't sell life insurance, and since I don't make any money, whether you buy life insurance or not, the advice that I give clients with regard to what to buy, how to buy it and how to utilize it is worth far more than the advice sometimes coming from the life insurance agent, him or herself. And so in a similar way, when there are certain financial service products, because we purposefully are not licensed to be a wealth managers and we don't touch clients' money, that lack of a conflict allows us to give advice and help support the financial advisors in a way that they couldn't do for themselves.
Eido Walny:
So having a good relationship with an independent estate planning attorney, who can solidify relationships for the financial advisors' clients is going to allow them to leverage their relationships and make more money in ways that they probably hadn't really thought of before. And so it's not a matter of looking elsewhere, but thinking about how to work those relationships. And I think working collaboratively is always a winner for every member of the team.
Amy Parvaneh:
What is the attorney mindset around business development and marketing?
Absolutely. Is that the same mindset for all attorneys or would you also tell us best practices in all of financial advisors who want to work with different types of attorneys? Are there some attorneys that are better for getting more fast-paced referrals, in your opinion? If you were a financial advisor, would you spend, we only have 24 hours in a day, how would you allocate your time working with attorneys if that was the route you were going to go?
Eido Walny:
Yeah, there's absolutely no way that that is the mindset of every attorney. I think we are forward-thinking in this regard, frankly. I think it's one of the reasons we're as successful as we are. We hear constantly in the marketplace that for example, life insurance agents are hesitant to work with estate planning attorneys because the attorneys will ruin a sale for them or delay things or not understand how anyone is making money and they sour relationships.
Eido Walny:
So that is a way to poison relationships. And you don't want to work with someone who's going to cost you money. And so we are very cognizant of how financial services work. I'm not a banker, but I understand how banks work. I'm not an insurance agent, but I understand a lot about insurance in that industry. Similarly, I'm not a financial advisor, but I understand a lot about that industry and the various products that they offer and how financial advisors leverage and utilize those products.
Eido Walny:
And so I think when you're looking for a good relationship, you need to find someone who's like-minded like you, who's going to help you, and likewise, you can help them. There are a lot of attorneys, just like there are a lot of insurance agents and a lot of financial advisors, who are more than happy to work in a vacuum and not care about what your estate plan is and not care what insurance you have, not care whether you're filing your taxes or not. Frankly, I've heard this myself. I've heard financial advisors tell me, my job is to make you as much money as possible. And at the end of the day, if you die with a giant pile of money, I've done my job. Well, that's nonsense. Would you rather have $5 million that you can pass all of it to your heirs, or would you rather have $7 million where half of it is going to be lost to taxes?
Eido Walny:
To me, clearly you'd rather have the 5 million, which is less than 7 million, if all of it can go to your heirs. And so it's not just a matter of absolutes where bigger means more and you've won. That is an over-simplistic view. That is an unhealthy view. And I think at the end, that's someone who's self motivated and not motivated by the goals of the clients. And so for me, I'm always looking for someone who really is interested in working collaboratively and having the client's goals be the most important goal. I'm successful when my clients are successful. If I'm successful and my client isn't, there's no way that you can call that success. To me, that's failure, not success.
Amy Parvaneh:
Is it a waste of time trying to get referrals from some attorneys?
Yeah. And it also sounds like one of the mindset characteristics to look for is an entrepreneurial mindset. If you're in a growth mode, you want to be looking for an attorney, but there's a divorce attorney or an estate planning attorney who is also entrepreneurial. And one of the ways you could see that as are they being active on LinkedIn, are they posting, are they doing a lot of speaking engagements? But if their marketing and their outbound approach is dormant, it might be a good sign. This person is not interested, no matter how much you're spending your time. Sure, maybe their client and Rolodex is pretty massive, but they're not going to care about working with you. Would you agree with that kind of characteristic?
Eido Walny:
Yeah. I think it's a telltale sign. I don't know that that's the be all end, all. Different things work for different people. There are some people who are successful that I could try to dissect why they're successful and never really figure it out. Some people just have a way of making things work, but I think if we're talking about someone who's on the upswing of their career and still looking for relationships and trying to grow their business as a financial advisor, I need someone who's going to work with me and not work against me or not work in spite of me.
Eido Walny:
So having someone who is like-minded, who understands the game that we're all playing together, that's really important. And I think having that entrepreneurial spirit is telltale, again, not determinative. There are certainly going to be people who maybe don't do those things, but can still be successful and you can still work with them successfully. But I think if you're going to find someone entrepreneurial who kind of gets it, that's always a good sign, not a bad sign.
Amy Parvaneh:
How to build a COI referral network?
That's great. Well, Eido, let's go through a hypothetical situation. Let's say I'm Amy, I've just started, maybe I'm five years in as a financial advisor and I live in a small town. I know you grew up in a small town as well. And I want to start getting referrals from attorneys. Walk me through what I should do first. How do I find the right attorneys? What do you recommend is the right database? Would it be LinkedIn? Would there be another site? Second, what do I write to these individual attorneys that would grab your attention, for example. And then let's go through the cadence and the sequence from there.
Eido Walny:
Honestly, just get out there. That would be my advice, just have lunch with people, have breakfast with people, just get to know them. At the end of the day, we like to work with people who we like, and we like people for various reasons, but I don't think that you should look at metrics online or see anything like that as a starting point. Again, under the hypothetical, if I'm just starting out and I really don't have that many relationships, and I'm just looking to build, what you want to do is get out there, start to build relationships, and start to bridge divides. And I have a policy and I certainly have this and espouse this to young attorneys at my firm. Never, ever have lunch by yourself. If you have to eat, and I certainly would not recommend going through the day without eating at all, always do it with someone. Don't waste that time.
Eido Walny:
Why sit in your office with the door closed, just eating your sandwich? Go out there and have lunch with someone at least a couple, three times a week if you can, because you're going to be eating lunch anyway. You don't even have to necessarily talk about business with people, just get to know them. And then business will naturally come up. As part of the conversation, people ask, what do you do? How can I help? What do your clients look like? Is there anything that you're unhappy with the other service providers you're working with?
Eido Walny:
Maybe these are nuggets of information that can help you better your practice. Maybe it's an opportunity for you to connect with someone who's going to lead to business for you. Maybe it's an opportunity for you to get in good with that person by giving them a referral. But I think if no one knows you exist, you can be the smartest attorney or the best financial advisor, and you're sitting behind an empty desk. And so don't do that. Get out there, have lunch with people, go to events, just start building relationships. That is absolutely step one.
Amy Parvaneh:
How to keep dripping on COI’s after an initial meeting?
That's obviously, it's so crucial. That's key. What about, let's say you go meet with an attorney. You have a great conversation. You've taken them out. Let's hope that things are opening in people's town. Some towns are closed and it's more difficult, obviously, we'll talk about that too. But then you don't hear back from the attorney. I've had that happen to me. I've seen it happen so many times to advisors. Why does that happen? I guess that's like a more general question, but also, are there other ways to follow up and drip on that attorney going forward?
Eido Walny:
I always tell people that common courtesy is the least common thing in the world. You would think that people would be cordial and follow up and return phone calls and return emails, but frankly, it doesn't happen. And I think the legal field is not immune from that by any means. There are lawyers that I even can't get to return my calls on matters we're working on together. It's as infuriating to me as it is to referral sources and clients. So I totally get it. I look at it from the perspective of, I always want to build relationships. And so when people call me, when people email me, I always try to respond in a timely manner. Sometimes the response is, listen, I'm really busy. Let me get back to you tomorrow, or let me get back to you this evening, or over the weekend, or whatever.
Eido Walny:
But at least there's an acknowledgement that your communication to me has not been lost. I acknowledged that I received it. I am setting a deadline for myself to get back to you. For me, that also shows the person who sent the email that they're important to me, and this is how I would communicate when we were doing business, or when a client were to reach out to me. I think there are conclusions that you can draw if you're getting blown off as well. Now, sometimes people get busy and things slip through the cracks. So I'm not saying that that's an absolute, sometimes people need a second or a third chance, but it's a pretty deep ocean.
Eido Walny:
There are a lot of estate planning attorneys. There are a lot of financial advisors. There are a lot of accountants. There are a lot of insurance agents. Now, I think again, with common courtesy being the least common thing in the world, one of the things you can do to stand out from the crowd is simply give those common courtesies. Acknowledge people, return those calls, return those emails in a timely manner and start to build those relationships. That's really the way that I look at it.
Amy Parvaneh:
Absolutely. You, for example, yourself have kind of divided yourself or separated yourself from what I've seen out there with the lack of response from some attorneys, which I just frankly don't understand. So that's something that a lot of advisors also deal with sometimes. And so it's great to hear that it doesn't have to be an end all be all. There's other lawyers that you could try to hone that relationship. And then what about from there? I once heard a study that said it takes seven times, seven contacts with the same attorney before they actually give you a referral. I know that's like an average, but I think that the data on the study said on average, it takes seven times, meaning like one lunch, then one coffee, then one communication. Would you say that that's valid, that it's extremely rare that on the first or second meeting with an attorney, you're going to get an actual referral?
Eido Walny:
I think it really comes down to timing. Again, if most of my clients are coming in on referral from a financial advisor, I would no sooner refer a client to another financial advisor from the referral source as I want that done to me. And that's absolutely never. You respect the relationships. And so you just don't do that. And so if it's a financial advisor, I may just have fewer opportunities to do that. And then with the every so often opportunities that I do have, I can't refer that client to 20 different financial advisors. So I'm generally trying to refer two or three or maybe four, but that means there are a lot of people who simply aren't going to be able to get on that list.
Eido Walny:
Now I try to remember who I would like to try to get some names in front of, but sometimes it's a matter of wrong fit. Maybe it's not a good personality fit. Maybe it's a bad location fit, or maybe in some other demographic. Sometimes we're told, I'd rather work with a female financial advisor and you happen to not be female. And so there isn't that connection that I can make. And so I don't ever think about it in terms of, well, this guy or this person has reached out to me seven times. I really owe them one at this point. Again, I never keep score like that. Never, never, ever. If there's an opportunity that I think fits, if it's the first time I've had lunch with them or the 20th time I've had lunch with them, if it's a good fit and the timing happens to work out, that's how referrals matriculate.
Amy Parvaneh:
How to show your value to a COI
Yeah, absolutely. As someone who is in the legal industry, you're not a financial advisor. I've heard and I've seen it happen over and over, from the outside, all financial advisors kind of look the same, and it seems like they all do the same thing. What are some ways that you would like to see an advisor differentiated? What are some characteristics you look for in an advisor besides obviously their personality and you said their politeness and their manners, but what are some ways that they could differentiate their practice so that you would be more apt to see them as a referral possibility?
Eido Walny:
So this is a universal challenge, because I know that for a lot of not only financial service professionals, but frankly clients in the wild as well, a lot of what we do has become commoditized. Now, we all think we're special. I think I'm special. I think my firm is special, but I also don't fool myself that every client is going to understand that. To me, we're just lawyers. We're just estate planning lawyers. And to them outwardly, we are the same as every other lawyer, forget about estate planning. They just sort of put us in this deep pool of lawyers and you're a lawyer like every other lawyer. And so I think the onus really falls on us to show our peers and the other financial service professionals and ultimately the clients, why we're different from every other. And this needs to be done on a one by one ad hoc basis.
Eido Walny:
This is why I don't like doing shotgun approaches to marketing, where we're doing these giant dinners or going to big events, because you don't have an opportunity to connect with someone at a personal level and show them that here are the things that we're doing differently than others, whether it's certain products or certain trusts or certain kinds of insurance, or here are the personal interests that I'm vested in. Again, whether it's a charitable interest or some sort of hobby, those sorts of things start to pull you away from the crowd.
Eido Walny:
And then again, little things, common things like returning phone calls and emails. Those little things start to add up and show people how you're different from the rest. And in my opinion, that's best done on a one-on-one or two-on-two sort of approach in small groups, where you can sell yourself to someone and really show them that yeah, there are a lot of estate planning attorneys out there, but we're a really good one to work with. And there may be other good ones to work with. We're not certainly the only ones, but here's why we're different than the random name you're going to pull out of a phone book or a Google search.
Amy Parvaneh:
How to differentiate yourself as an attorney
Yeah. Well, why don't you first tell me, I would love to hear how you are differentiating yourself as an estate planning attorney, and then I'd also love to hear maybe one advisor. You don't need to name them, but how you've seen them differentiate themselves.
Eido Walny:
So we differentiate ourselves by the fact that A, we've been around for 10 years now, so we're not a fly by night firm. We've got a lot of stability. Some of the lawyers at our firm, including myself, started off at big firms. And we learned a lot at those firms and have a very deep breadth of knowledge, but we decided that the business model, both internally, as to the lawyers at the firm and externally, the way that we relate to our clients, was not best served in a big firm environment, that it was best done in a boutique environment where we could really contour the business model, again, internally and externally to the needs of our employees, including our lawyers and our clients. And that included things like getting rid of billable hours and going to a flat fee approach where clients knew going into a project what it was going to cost, and didn't have to open every month's legal bill with one eye shut, holding their breath, trying to guess what the fee was going to be.
Eido Walny:
And you never knew if it was going to be a big number or a small number. And so we really contour our business and are really specialists in the estate planning arena, which allows us to be very different than a lot of our peers and competitors, because there simply aren't very many and certainly not in this area of the country, but even nationally, there aren't very many boutique estate planning firms. And so we really are a special group. And so to me, that is really our elevator speech. That's how in a very short period, we summarize how we're special, how we're different.
Eido Walny:
I can talk about various things that we do if we get a little deeper into it. I restore vintage cars. I have a cuff link business that I've started. My son is a hockey player. My daughter has Olympic aspirations with figure skating. Those sorts of things are things that are a little bit deeper and not always appropriate to bring into the conversation. But if we synthesize the essence of our firm into a minute or two, I think that first segment that I talked about, about the very nature of this firm, really does set us apart. And then people say yeah, there really aren't a lot of people doing what you're doing, so let's continue to have this conversation.
Amy Parvaneh:
Yeah. Oh yeah. You know how much I come to you for what you're doing with your kids, because it's so inspirational. What about on the advisor side, what have you seen as an advisor that's pitched or ... I don't like to use the word pitch, but you've worked with. If you were going to explain it to a client of yours, you would say, this is why I love that advisor.
Eido Walny:
I would say that it tends to be some sort of commonality that we have with the financial advisor. So I'm a car guy. And one of the financial advisors I really like to work with is also a car guy and I'm a business owner and he's a business owner. And a lot of my clients are business owners and his clients are business owners. So there's a lot of synergy there and we've gone on a couple trips together based on cars. So we went and raced cars in Florida together one time, we went to go visit Jay Leno's garage in California once. And these are really bonding experiences. And at the end of the day, they have nothing to do with financial advice and has nothing to do with the law, but it's that mutual appreciation of what we do and who we are, and the fact that we can have full conversations and never talk shop at all other than car shop, really makes working together fun.
Eido Walny:
And that's one example. There are other examples where ... For example, when we're doing high net worth planning, I always want the financial advisor to do some financial modeling for the clients, because I feel that I can't do a good estate plan without knowing some projections for what the client has and where they're going with their assets. And that's something I simply can't do. Again, I'm not a financial advisor. I don't deal with people's money. I am more of an architect, not a brick and mortar builder.
Eido Walny:
And so there are some financial advisors whose modeling and the sorts of work that they can produce are really fantastic. And they're extremely helpful to me professionally, they're done in a way that the client really understands and it just makes everybody's life a whole lot easier. And when we can get that kind of outcome that's a win for everybody. And so I like working with those people, because they make my job easier. And so that's another completely different angle of someone who I try my best to work with.
Amy Parvaneh:
I love hearing that. So it just very much proves exactly what you said, build relationships, because at the end of the day, the estate attorney, the divorce attorney is going to say, go to my guy Bob at XYZ financial firm, I really like him. Not, I think he does unique commodity trading, but more, I really like him. And that's a huge validation to that advisor. Eido, just a final question. I know we're over short on time, but you mentioned go to a lunch with everyone. And at the time we're doing this recording on August 11th of 2021, there are still some places that are, it's very confusing as far as like, can we do lunch, can we not? Things are still a little bit more virtual. Have you found best practices as far as building relationships virtually?
Eido Walny:
How to differentiate yourself and show your value proposition as a financial advisor
Read our article called “The Solution to a Commoditized Business”
Absolutely. I think that now is an opportunity to differentiate yourself from a lot of other people who are looking at the COVID area as a time to be apart, and they're not leveraging the relationships that they have. I think now is a time where I'm finding myself sending a lot of emails and making a lot of calls that are simply this. How are you doing? You popped into my head. I've been thinking about you. I want to make sure you're good, your family's good. What are you up to, how's business? It's a very short personal contact with someone. I think people who have been away from the office and working virtually, and aren't doing the lunches and the events and things, Zoom is fine, but it's sort of impersonal. And you have all these two dimensional people in front of you.
Eido Walny:
I think it means a lot to get a short text or call or email, just touching bases with people. And I think that I have found that doing that really helped solidify a personal relationship, even beyond professional. People appreciate it. At the end of the day, what we are trying to do is when a referral opportunity comes up, you want to be top of mind. And I think if you can be that person who, without fishing for work or without having any kind of alternative agenda, at least not overtly, you're just interested in this person as a human being, and you just want to touch bases with them. Hey, how are you doing? How's your family doing how's business? Is there anything I can do to help you?
Eido Walny:
How to grow your practice and stay on top of mind in a virtual world
And people appreciate that. And I found myself doing that a lot and not taking for granted that no, I guess we're all just apart, and once things thaw out, we'll try to catch up and have lunch again. Yeah, we can do that, but let's do something right now as well. And I have found that to work really, really well. It takes two seconds. I send a few of these in the morning or over lunch or in the evening when I'm just laying in bed and it is incredibly effective.
Amy Parvaneh:
I love hearing that. And I've seen that as a best practice of late, when an advisor actually picks up the phone and calls an attorney and just says hey, just wanted to see how you're doing. It's really heartwarming, and it really bridges that gap, because we don't need to wait until we could all go to lunch and we don't have massive luncheons. You could just start now by picking up the phone instead of hiding and waiting.
Eido Walny:
Absolutely.
Amy Parvaneh:
Well this has been incredibly helpful again, to repeat, Eido Walny from Walny's Legal Group. Eido also does executive coaching with advisors who have retained us for sales coaching, for executive coaching, and business coaching. So you can always reach out to us to be coached by Eido, as well as do reach out to him if you're looking for estate planning advice. So we will hyperlink his information below and definitely reach out to us if you have any questions around this. Thanks a lot and have a great day.